Shattered Kingdoms
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Vote: Best changes to retain/excite existing players
https://www.shatteredkingdoms.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=24400		 Page 4 of 7
Author:  patrisaurus [ Sat Dec 21, 2013 4:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vote: Best changes to retain/excite existing players
Right, which in turn promotes spam-killing to take stuff, which leads to further rage deletes from people getting spam-killed to the extent that someone wants to loot them. I'm just trying to point out that there are ramifications with choices like these, which are more game design than marketing/accessibility related. While I am sympathetic to your situation, I am suggesting that this might be more a personal issue you have with SK, rather than an issue SK should conform to your wishes on.

I'd like to see you playing, of course, and I do think SK went a long way in a positive direction when the enchant changes made it so easy to reequip (seriously, 2 IC friends and I 100% reequipped another ally - 2 weapons, full set of armor, full set of jewelry all with enchants in 2.5 hours earlier). However, I don't think a change like you propose would help the overall player count - instead, there'd just be other people posting that they like SK but wish looting were allowable.

There's a difference between game design and player management that I can't quite find words to describe perfectly, but you have an issue with the former and I think this thread is trying to solve the latter.
Author:  jreid_1985 [ Sat Dec 21, 2013 5:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vote: Best changes to retain/excite existing players
I think a lot of players are attracted to tribunals, cabals and even certain races, wanting to increase their abilities and powers, but not clearly or fully thinking through certain implications. When joining certain groups or playing certain races, you automatically inherit enemies, and with enemies comes the possibility of pk and looting.

I've certainly made the same mistake before, often jumping into the pvp arena too early and losing loot, but that should not deter you from playing the game.
You should simply adjust your play style, choices and expectations accordingly.

I think that if there were no risk involved in pk, it would probably get rather dull, but I think certain PvE areas of the game need to be more casual to cater to explorer types, maybe more signs and warnings that if you walk into that room, a gigantic demon is gonna wtfpwnu in 3 hits.
Author:  theDrifter [ Sat Dec 21, 2013 9:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vote: Best changes to retain/excite existing players
I came to this game because rp is required and looting and killing is allowed. To me that is the heart of what makes this game unique. Don't mess that up.
Author:  grep [ Sat Dec 21, 2013 9:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vote: Best changes to retain/excite existing players
A glance at wert's canon gospel on PVP will reveal that the required RP oftentimes involves consenting to being killed rather than being allowed to kill. There's a chance to misconstrue the ease with which a character can engage in PVP otherwise.

The fact that you can RP with some people and, for that RP, be PVPed by others who you may not even have interacted with in-character would qualify for already being messed up by some more social types, while the killers might not have a problem with that or even see a problem with that. The fact that you can be PVPed forever by others after a condition has been satisfied without recourse might qualify as messed up. Enmity probably doesn't count. Aura should, but that's something that'll never take: roleplaying seems to be about playing your role more than it seems to be about playing nicely with other people. Don't believe me? Read the log site.

The high buy-in time it takes to actually engage in the PVP sub-game and recover from any losses, particularly when dragged into it unawares, is an opportunity cost for roleplaying that we've already seen identified by many community members as a deal breaker for logging in. I think that qualifies as being messed up already, too.
Author:  FinneyOwnzU [ Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:44 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vote: Best changes to retain/excite existing players
grep wrote:
The high buy-in time it takes to actually engage in the PVP sub-game and recover from any losses, particularly when dragged into it unawares, is an opportunity cost for roleplaying that we've already seen identified by many community members as a deal breaker for logging in. I think that qualifies as being messed up already, too.



If you aren't interested in PK or it bothers you so much that you stop logging in, SK is probably not the game for you. I am in favor of and have posted previously about adding a cool down on the quaff command, so that preparation is not the deciding factor in PK. It would have the added benefit of making the decision to quaff more tactical, too.

Do I quaff this heal potion so I can hang in the fight longer? Or do I hold off so I can quaff a recall potion, if I need to escape? Currently, the correct answer to every situation in PK is to quaff heal potions early and often - double heal potions, if possible.

A ten second quaff "cool down" would make preparation less important, recovering from defeat less time consuming, and make the decision of when and what potion to quaff more tactical.
Author:  grep [ Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vote: Best changes to retain/excite existing players
FinneyOwnzU wrote:
If you aren't interested in PK or it bothers you so much that you stop logging in, SK is probably not the game for you.


A lot of people have thought so even though they liked it a lot at first. That's part of why we have this thread, isn't it?

I guess that's why the facebook option is still lagging in last place. The same game in new ways isn't exciting. A different game would be, and maybe that different game could still manage to be SK. That's a kind of optimism that's more uplifting than the HTFU line in your reply. If SK's happy being a niche game, it's happy being a niche game, but I've heard people bemoan playercount.

Maybe PK would be more interesting if it actually had roleplay around it. Maybe PK would be more enticing if I didn't have to think of it as a 5-hour commitment for a 5-minute minigame. Maybe PK would bother people less if it was actually fun instead of the meta-game gloating that was, in fact, the apparent source of jollies for so many people.
Author:  FinneyOwnzU [ Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vote: Best changes to retain/excite existing players
grep wrote:
FinneyOwnzU wrote:
If you aren't interested in PK or it bothers you so much that you stop logging in, SK is probably not the game for you.


A lot of people have thought so even though they liked it a lot at first. That's part of why we have this thread, isn't it?


I don't see what you are suggesting in the poll options, which means either it wasn't representative of the changes suggested in the original thread or it isn't something Dulrik is willing to change (like an OOC channel in the game). To be fair, I am not even certain what you are suggesting needs to be changed - you have tap danced around with generalizations. What exactly do you think needs to be changed about PK on Shattered Kingdoms?

Otherwise, this seems an awful lot like your discontent with the alignment system - a personal issue and not something that affects or is even on the radar of most players.
Author:  Dulrik [ Sat Dec 21, 2013 11:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Vote: Best changes to retain/excite existing players
We have always encouraged (and in fact required) that PK have roleplay around it.

My other comment is that this game can be niche and still have a higher player count. It's purposefully designed to be niche. We just need to be better at finding people who will enjoy the niche. Currently the word is not getting out to the places where people now frequent on the internet.
Author:  grep [ Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:04 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Vote: Best changes to retain/excite existing players
The standing policy, based on answers I've gotten from staff, is that it is not actually required for the person who kills you to have ever spoken to you. That roleplay, however you may want to slice it, does not add up to a sufficient total in my books.

Mine aren't the books in charge, and I might have some deluded, minority viewpoint, but that's what it is.

As for advertising, we're one of the top MUDs on the ranking sites, are we not? For the genre, aren't we performing decently?
Author:  jreid_1985 [ Sun Dec 22, 2013 12:06 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Vote: Best changes to retain/excite existing players
grep wrote:
FinneyOwnzU wrote:
If you aren't interested in PK or it bothers you so much that you stop logging in, SK is probably not the game for you.


A lot of people have thought so even though they liked it a lot at first. That's part of why we have this thread, isn't it?

I guess that's why the facebook option is still lagging in last place. The same game in new ways isn't exciting. A different game would be, and maybe that different game could still manage to be SK. That's a kind of optimism that's more uplifting than the HTFU line in your reply. If SK's happy being a niche game, it's happy being a niche game, but I've heard people bemoan playercount.

Maybe PK would be more interesting if it actually had roleplay around it. Maybe PK would be more enticing if I didn't have to think of it as a 5-hour commitment for a 5-minute minigame. Maybe PK would bother people less if it was actually fun instead of the meta-game gloating that was, in fact, the apparent source of jollies for so many people.


I've tried the whole rp before pk strategy. 9 times out of 10 they will either log off or recall and sit behind a guard at the judge. I don't understand why people gripe about getting killed when they join groups or play races that automatically come with enemies.
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