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Should Rule 1 be altered to ease PvP restrictions?
Yes 77%  77%  [ 20 ]
No 12%  12%  [ 3 ]
Wert 12%  12%  [ 3 ]
Total votes : 26
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 Post subject: Re: PvP Rules Input
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:22 am 
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Ezaya wrote:
In a game that's always had so much grey area and has always relied on players to make it interesting, I think everyone is just sick of the black and white approach lately. I doubt that anybody who has received a major punishment lately had the intent of sabotaging the game, making it less fun for other people, or doing anything that generally decreased the quality of the game itself. It keeps coming back to intent. A player gained an advantage by enchanting for his own character. Yes, that's an obvious rules violation, but who cares, really? I wouldn't do that, myself, but I would never want the game to lose a player and have to suffer yet another banhammer fallout discussion that apparently can only lead to the standoff that we keep having. It seems like the player base is trying to play a RP/PK mud, and Thuban is trying to play his own game regarding rules enforcement. I mean you have decades of playing experience complaining about how things are being handled and the staff position is rock solid that everyone is just wrong? Who is benefiting from any of this? Also, if the check and balance system for players is in the lap of one single person, who's checking that person? You can, of course, argue that every punishment for every violation that's happened is legit by the letter of the law, but how is this trend helping the game as a whole? Take Syn for example. Was I ever under the impression that Syn followed the rules to a T? No. Was I often on the [REDACTED] end of Syn's antics and forced to play the game harder due to someone dictating my play? Yes. But if I really wanted to avoid Syn's character and play the game in a manner where Syn just had absolutely no impact on my character I could, easily, no matter how many rules were being broken. Now my play is being dictated by someone my character can't just man up and go deal with if I want to. I'm not saying I want to cheat. I'm just saying it doesn't feel like I even know what is going to be viewed as cheating and what isn't half the time. Because my intent is never to ruin the game for someone else I don't ever feel like I'm cheating.(my admitted botting of my first char back in like 5 years because I was lazy aside) In all of the recent arguments between the players and the staff(Thuban specifically), it seems like it always comes back to "don't cheat and it'll all be fine." Well, how about you let the players enforce the rules themselves for the most part, like they have for years? Anybody can make a log of another player doing something illegal and submit it if they feel the need to. Something can always be reported and looked into. Rules Manager should be a position that is responsible to the player base to keep the game fun. How many of the recent penalties have been brought to the attention of the staff vs the staff just enforcing them on the players? The players are responsible to each other in respect to the rules, because each other is what makes the game interesting. We shouldn't be accountable to a Rules Manager, especially when that person has the ability to interpret and dictate how, or even IF, we get to play the game. If someone breaks a rule, they aren't doing it to carry out a vendetta against the Rules Manager, and the person with that job can't act like every rules violation is someone slapping his mother.

If you wanted to, you could call a penalty in just about every single play in football but they don't, because that isn't fun for anybody. Referees in any sport are governed by the sport itself, the players, and the fans...not the black and white letter of the law. Did Michael Jordan push off on a few game winning shots? Yep. Does anyone wish he didn't? Maybe the guy who got pushed, and likely only for a little while. Even that's a maybe, because the game itself grew from it and that player likely profited from it in the long term because the GAME grew from it.


Let me start by saying you are a guy who got busted for botting on an internet game where botting is not allowed. You're not Michael Jordan. Let me also say that Michael Jordan was called for 2,783 fouls in his career and fouled out of the game 11 times. He also wasn't cheating; he was just committing fouls, which have a clearly defined set of penalties and are an intrinsic part of how the game is played. Botting, on the other hand, is defined here as cheating. People get banned for cheating and other rules violations in the NBA all the time. It may or may not be "bad for the game" that a player commits domestic violence or that a player abuses steroids or that a player punches another player in the face during a game, but, regardless, the league has rules that all the players agree to abide by when they sign up, just like SK has rules and a ToS. And, just like in the NBA, when players cheat or commit rules violations, they face consequences.

If you want to make the case that botting, multi-playing, spamming, harassment, and bug abuse should be legal, good luck with that, but I don't think it's for SK. If you've ever seen a MUD where botting is unrestricted, you end up with people bot-spamming their iTunes playlists in their titles.

You're not entitled to cheat. If you get caught, you will get punished. If players stop cheating, I can stop punishing people for cheating. Don't act like it is rocket science, either. Anyone could have told you that botting in the newbie zone was against the rules. You did it because you felt entitled to, not because you weren't aware it was against the rules.


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 Post subject: Re: PvP Rules Input
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:27 am 
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Edoras wrote:
Unless this is off-topic, it looks like you're saying that cheating is acceptable if it makes the game easier. That's a flawed line of reasoning, akin to saying that people who don't cheat deserve to be at a disadvantage.

Last I checked, no one ever "needs" enchanting to reach GM, let alone at level 1.


This is the point I'm trying to make. People are not entitled to cheat. They may be used to getting away with it and find the game less enjoyable when they have to compete on an even footing with other players instead of cheating to get the advantage, but we don't need these types of players anyway. They can reform or face the consequences, and if they have to leave because they want to play a game where cheating is tolerated, they're welcome to. Players should ideally respect each other and play accordingly. Cheating flies in the face of that.


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 Post subject: Re: PvP Rules Input
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:07 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:43 am
Posts: 5614
Location: Columbia, South Carolina
SK Character: Pilnor, Surrit, Berr, Rall
FinneyOwnzU wrote:
Edoras wrote:
FinneyOwnzU wrote:
i'm sure he rolled his eyes and quit cuz he was going to be deleted no matter he said, if the rulez were going to be enforced as written. what u guys should be asking urself is why a veteran player would intentionally and blatantly break that rule? there's only one reason - it's almost impossible to find a sorcerer to enchant for u lately due to the low counts.

maybe that should prompt the addition of NPCs that can enchant/consecrate for a fee, like has been requested at least a dozen times over the years.
Unless this is off-topic, it looks like you're saying that cheating is acceptable if it makes the game easier. That's a flawed line of reasoning, akin to saying that people who don't cheat deserve to be at a disadvantage.

Last I checked, no one ever "needs" enchanting to reach GM, let alone at level 1.


don't recall saying that pat needed to enchant anything with his alt

i'm just pointing out why this game can't break single digit who list 90% of the time
And why is that, exactly? Is it because Dulrik hasn't put in a lot of updates? While that might be a reason, it's immensely off-topic. It also has absolutely no basis in a discussion as to whether cheating should be acceptable. You said "the only reason that a veteran player would multiplay to get enchants is that there aren't any sorcs because the count is low." That's flawed. There's a fundamental -second- statement that has to be true for a vet to blatantly break the rules: They have to be willing to cheat.

So yes, if any player, vet or not, has no problem with cheating, he might intentionally and blatantly break a rule that gives him an advantage. And personally, I hope that if he gets caught doing so, because otherwise the rest of the playerbase is on an uneven footing for not being willing to cheat.


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 Post subject: Re: PvP Rules Input
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:10 pm 
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this is a discussion of the rulez, so talking about why someone would break a rule seems relevant to me.


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 Post subject: Re: PvP Rules Input
PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2016 12:39 pm 
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Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:43 am
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Location: Columbia, South Carolina
SK Character: Pilnor, Surrit, Berr, Rall
Sure that's fine: But to avoid the obvious fact that he's breaking the rules because he thinks it's okay to break the rules and they give him an unfair advantage is pretty much the biggest factor into that discussion, and you completely ignored it, instead choosing to blame... something else as the primary reason he was willing to break the rules.

People aren't -entitled- to enchanting, or consecrating, or even resurrections. Cheating to get those for your characters is just that, cheating, and if sorcerers are low population and you cheat to get enchants, then in that case your cheating is actually much more unfair to the rest of the playerbase than it normally would be, because it's not only a measure of convenience, it's actually adding more to your characters maximum potential that the rest of the playerbase has no access to.

There's -always- going to be a "good reason" to break the rules if you have no problem with breaking them.


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 Post subject: Re: PvP Rules Input
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 5:09 am 
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Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 5:06 am
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Location: Seattle
SK Character: Theodoric
You guys get so hot and bothered about this stuff. I think I've had like 2 characters ever that didn't cheat at some point in between levels 1 and 20 for quality of life purposes, because I don't really care what a bunch of people on SK think that says about me, and level 1-20 are important to get right trains-wise as well as zero investment. When I get caught no big deal I take the deletes that come with it. It's a cost benefit thing.

Now I do think Thuban is a hilarious reflection of SK priorities. I guess keeping an eye on people pking heroes/paragons or cheating for an enchanted weapon at lvl 1 to avoid having to interact with the Bokos of the game is more critical than religion invests or imm-guided activities!


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 Post subject: Re: PvP Rules Input
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:52 am 
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Location: Columbia, South Carolina
SK Character: Pilnor, Surrit, Berr, Rall
I don't understand why you would feel the need to multiplay to get your stats right. It's totally unnecessary and not worth risking any punishments over.


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 Post subject: Re: PvP Rules Input
PostPosted: Thu Jun 02, 2016 10:41 pm 
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Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:37 pm
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Thuban wrote:
Ezaya wrote:
I'm not saying I want to cheat. I'm just saying it doesn't feel like I even know what is going to be viewed as cheating and what isn't half the time. Because my intent is never to ruin the game for someone else I don't ever feel like I'm cheating.(my admitted botting of my first char back in like 5 years because I was lazy aside).


Let me start by saying you are a guy who got busted for botting on an internet game where botting is not allowed. You're not Michael Jordan. Let me also say that Michael Jordan was called for 2,783 fouls in his career and fouled out of the game 11 times. He also wasn't cheating; he was just committing fouls, which have a clearly defined set of penalties and are an intrinsic part of how the game is played. Botting, on the other hand, is defined here as cheating. People get banned for cheating and other rules violations in the NBA all the time. It may or may not be "bad for the game" that a player commits domestic violence or that a player abuses steroids or that a player punches another player in the face during a game, but, regardless, the league has rules that all the players agree to abide by when they sign up, just like SK has rules and a ToS. And, just like in the NBA, when players cheat or commit rules violations, they face consequences.

If you want to make the case that botting, multi-playing, spamming, harassment, and bug abuse should be legal, good luck with that, but I don't think it's for SK. If you've ever seen a MUD where botting is unrestricted, you end up with people bot-spamming their iTunes playlists in their titles.

You're not entitled to cheat. If you get caught, you will get punished. If players stop cheating, I can stop punishing people for cheating. Don't act like it is rocket science, either. Anyone could have told you that botting in the newbie zone was against the rules. You did it because you felt entitled to, not because you weren't aware it was against the rules.


I'm glad you started by stating something that I stated. I did get busted for botting. I botted a char in the newbie zone and when I got busted for it I admitted to it and there was no further discussion. I got deleted and moved on. You, however, seem to consider this some great victory for you over me and continue to bring it up for some reason even though I stated it in my original post and have admitted to it on several occasions. All that does is further prove my point. "Rules Manager of SK" to you is the game you're playing. You have absolutely no clue how you're affecting the overall atmosphere of SK. You quoted me not being Michael Jordan. How amazing for you. However, in that reference, intent is everything. This is what I've been saying all along. A common foul does not determine the outcome of the entire NBA, let alone a single game. Your entire post and how personally you seem to be taking it just goes to show how you're attacking this "intolerable amount of rules violations" epidemic. A single rules violation against dozens, if not hundreds, of acts of promotion of fair play and game expansion, in your mind, would result in an extremely harsh punishments. That's just plain stupid. If you don't understand what you're doing to the game then you just need to step away. If one person says you smoke crack, fine. If two do, well think about it. If the entire player base says you're smoking crack then dude, you're a crack smoker!


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 Post subject: Re: PvP Rules Input
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:46 am 
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Joined: Tue May 31, 2005 9:16 am
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SK Character: NA - Inactive
Ezaya wrote:
I botted a char in the newbie zone and when I got busted for it I admitted to it and there was no further discussion. I got deleted and moved on.

FWIW, I respect how you responded to that and followed up with a character who has contributed positively to the game.


Ezaya wrote:
This is what I've been saying all along. A common foul does not determine the outcome of the entire NBA, let alone a single game. ... A single rules violation against dozens, if not hundreds, of acts of promotion of fair play and game expansion, in your mind, would result in an extremely harsh punishments. That's just plain stupid.

A common foul does not determine the outcome of the entire NBA. But a common foul *COULD* determine the outcome of a close game. A single rules violation is still a rules violation. You are a positive contributor to the game. That doesn't earn you a "get out of jail free" card. What you are advocating is a system of favoritism that we're very careful to avoid -- in large part because of player complaints & accusations about favoritism!

That's just not a winning argument, and years of SK history suggest that the playerbase finds that kind of Imm favoritism as completely unacceptable. In fact, I think many of those upset about rules enforcement are also, in many cases, the same people who have complained in the past about favoritism accusations, and about lax enforcement of game rules. If there are rules + punishments that should be changed, then we should change them. But I cannot support the logic that they be made more arbitrary and left to the whim of an enforcer's personal opinion, which is what your argument boils down to.

I probably should've moderated your post instead of quote and respond to it, so don't be surprised if another imm does, but I think the point bears repeating.


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 Post subject: Re: PvP Rules Input
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:54 am 
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Ezaya wrote:
I'm glad you started by stating something that I stated. I did get busted for botting. I botted a char in the newbie zone and when I got busted for it I admitted to it and there was no further discussion. I got deleted and moved on. You, however, seem to consider this some great victory for you over me and continue to bring it up for some reason even though I stated it in my original post and have admitted to it on several occasions. All that does is further prove my point. "Rules Manager of SK" to you is the game you're playing. You have absolutely no clue how you're affecting the overall atmosphere of SK. You quoted me not being Michael Jordan. How amazing for you. However, in that reference, intent is everything. This is what I've been saying all along. A common foul does not determine the outcome of the entire NBA, let alone a single game. Your entire post and how personally you seem to be taking it just goes to show how you're attacking this "intolerable amount of rules violations" epidemic. A single rules violation against dozens, if not hundreds, of acts of promotion of fair play and game expansion, in your mind, would result in an extremely harsh punishments. That's just plain stupid. If you don't understand what you're doing to the game then you just need to step away. If one person says you smoke crack, fine. If two do, well think about it. If the entire player base says you're smoking crack then dude, you're a crack smoker!


If you want me to stop punishing people for cheating, people need to stop cheating. That's how this works. I am not responsible for other people's choices. If they choose to cheat, that's on them, not me. I never make the first move when it comes to enforcing rules against cheating; I am always responding to someone else's decision to cheat. The people who are hurting the game are the ones making those decisions. The ones complaining about me enforcing Rules 5, 6, or 7 are the ones who have been breaking Rules 5, 6, or 7, not the entire player base. The power to end this cycle rests with the players who cheat, not with me. As Rules Manager, I have to enforce the rules. As players, you don't have to cheat (and, thankfully, most don't).

This thread was originally about Rule 1, and plenty of rule-abiding players would like that to be updated, so it likely will when we have figured out the best way to make it more straightforward and comprehensible. Rules 5, 6, and 7 aren't changing. Cheating isn't going to be tolerated or encouraged by lessening the consequences.


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