Shattered Kingdoms

That's a really good writeup, tbh.

I feel like it's less important to focus on the 1v1 duel aspect though, since that doesn't really have a /lot/ of impact on general gameplay.

The problem is not "paladins beat hellions". You can have a lot of fun still, even if you can't 1v1 specific classes. Even if it is RP-ly a class you are fated to go up against.

The problem is that Paladins are currently S++ tier for general gameplay, while Hellions are down at the bottom, maybe a slight notch above necromancers.

And the issue is that Hellions haven't really gotten worse, per se. The issue is that Paladins have benefitted from a number of changes leading up to this point, and when you pile up all those changes, it's almost insurmountable. Paladins can literally solo half of the end-game zones. Hellions are almost a waste of a spot in your group because they just make the formation more complicated (you need another tank to put them behind).

I did want to touch on the matter of consecrate armor vs weapon and the disparity there, because I agree with Zelenik. Honestly, there's an almost /laughable/ disparity there. Paladins can sit and enchant a /whole set of armor with AP/MP for themselves/ (and their friends).

Meanwhile, Hellions can't even put speed runes on the massive weapons they need to use. Consecrate weapon on hellions isn't just "worse" than paladins getting armor, it's flat out useless. The easy change here is to just give hellions consecrate armor as well.

There are a number of "small" things that just make no sense, too. Why do paladins get frenzy and HELLIONS don't? If anything that would make way more sense the other way around. Paladins get disarm and rescue, hellions don't. This seems to hint at the fact that hellions are obviously meant to not be up front.

Maledictions are currently not in a good state. If your opponent is anybody that's been playing the game for any length of time, you are literally wasting time/mana to try and cast maledictions. Impairment isn't enough, because fights don't really last that long. They're borderline non-existent in PVE. You're just throwing mana away and slowing down the group.

It's sort of strange to have things in the game like....MR barbs instantly dispelling a whole affects list, while a hellion/necro/shaman is spending 7 rounds trying to blind someone. Who then eats a cure blind herb or casts cure blind and is healed of it instantly/within a round of combat. (Kind of a tangent here, but it's just...to show a sort of 'state of the game' thing.)

Paladins get call armor/locate, two spells that make 'general play' far more entertaining and manageable.

IMO, some of the easiest solutions here, IMO, are to give hellions some utility stuff, and perhaps play up the fact that Hellions are supposed to be the more "offensive" variant of knight, as clearly shown by their lack of certain skills that would put them on the front line.

Give hellions call armor and locate, first of all. These do absolutely nothing to change "game balance", they just make the class less horrible for the user. There's no IC reason they wouldn't be able to perform these two things.

Change consecrate weapon to armor. Like...come on, man. It shouldn't even need an explanation on this one. Being able to consecrate a whole set of armor is just light years beyond being able to...consecrate a weapon. (Nevermind that ENCHANT weapon is the one you'd want, anyways.)

As far as actual 'game balance' goes, I think one of the easiest and most reasonable changes is...Yes. The fourth attack angle.

But just fourth attack doesn't cut it, because you still need something to actually get hellions to 4 attacks with the weapons they are meant to be using (cleaving weapons). My 2c is give hellions a either a polearm specific or cleaving-weapon (see help cleave for the list) specific skill that just...Gives hellions the benefits of specialization with all weapons of that type.

Wham bam, done. Now at least your hellion can do comparable melee damage to a merc/barb, can be a little more useful to team darkie, and can take a few more PvE risks.

And they're still going to get [REDACTED] on by paladins.

I was worried about fourth attack making Hellions stronger than Mercs, Barbs, and Swash. Merc, barb, and Swash each get additional skills to interact with their opponent (Bash, trip, dirt, etc.), additional evasion (eparry), additional damage (riposte, berserk, fury), additional break you (counterstrike) and best yet... aren't mages. I think fourth won't hurt their balance and uniqueness.

Retreat, rally, specialize (in any weapon), fury (also can use any weapon again). Bigger HP pools. Taunt, heckle.

Hellions getting the same number of hits with cleaving weapons as mercs/barbs wouldn't really do anything but make them less of a waste of space.

And you drop to 1 attack when casting stuff either way.

Mostly echoing the suggestions of other players here:
- Make dominates like tames, i.e. no concentration, not dispelable
- Give hellions trip, locate, disarm, frenzy.
- Exchange consecrate weapon for armor. Or at least let them put accuracy, damage, and speed on weapons.
- Buff maledictions in some way (but curse doesn't need to last an hour and half)
- Remove frenzy from paladins

I think making warpath a hellion spell would be useful and thematic. Give Sargas something else, preferably a spell not limited to the flock. Or, at least let Sargas priests cast warpath on other dark auras.

Giving hellions taunt and/or heckle could also be useful and thematic, although swashbucklers aren't in the greatest shape either and taking away some of their uniqueness is kinda meh.

Rather than give hellions taunt it would make more sense to give them feeblemind, dominate is similar thematically. Though feeblemind landing when you need it to is rare.

I think someone already proposed dominate being the opposite of taunt, essentially stopping combat by forcing the target to 'surrender' to the mightier hellion and imposing a 'dominate' effect. A dominated target is then intimidated 100% of the time if they try to restart combat while the effect is still active. This allows the hellion to either cleave or leave. I think dominated targets should be unable to flee, but able to quaff.

I think a change of this type would need to be coupled with the QoL suggestions mentioned above to fully revamp the class.

I have to agree that taunt isn't a good idea.

It wouldn't change any aspect of the class except helping them (or more specifically, their group) secure kills in PVP.

PVP-only changes really aren't what hellions need.

They need some MECHANICAL stuff to make a player not go "why didn't I roll a mercenary?" in general playing the game.

Also @sax, I wouldn't advocate removing frenzy from paladins. Not like it's a HUGE thing, it's just one of those..."why do they get it and hellions don't" points.

So even after a decade they are still bad lol. After my last Hellion even I said I would never make another one. Though like some of the idea's in this thread.

Give them evasion.

Also update intimidate to offer protection like the protection spell.

I don't think it makes sense to make hellions suddenly immune to BoG. Also they are heavy armor wearing knights, I don't think evasion fits thematically.

Have to agree, tbh.

Again, the problem isn't "paladins beat hellions".